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Archive for July 15th, 2010

July 16, 2010 The Second Coming on 2017?

The Second Coming of Christ in 2017, and the beginning of Tribulation on 2010. See the link.

10th of Tishrie 2010 = 18 Sept 2010

Nando

http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/july2010/jim715-4.htm

Jim Bramlett (15 July 2010)
Another good post pointing to 2010-2017


New post from CJ and some replies.

http://pub48.bravenet.com/forum/static/show.php?usernum=4086901292&frmid=13&msgid=989483&cmd=show

Written by twelvebooks

July 15, 2010 at 9:15 pm

Jan Mikael (15 July 2010) “The separation of “Israel” and the “Church””

There is a very damaging trend in parts of the Christian Church that believes that the church has replaced the Nation of Israel in the covenant promises. Another as damaging force is one called amilenialism which means that there is no millenium and that the kingdom is the present church.
Many years ago I bought the book Things to Come by J. Dwight Pentecost. After I read it I became knowledgeable of the prophetic nature of the Bible and of the different positions and interpretations that have been given through the ages. This is a book that must be read by any serious student of the Bible.

The article by Jan Mikael refers to this book and is a very good dissertation about the difference between the Church and Israel. Thank you Jan for sharing it with us.

Yours in Jesus Christ
Nando
http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/july2010/janm715.htm
Jan Mikael (15 July 2010)
“The separation of “Israel” and the “Church””

hi Doves !

I’ve got this letter and article from Tom Gaston, who mean we dont understand the difference between the Church and Israel, and it have maked a deep mess for a lot.
It’s a realy good letter, Im not agree in all, but it’s good for understanding the scriptures about the church versus Israel better, you should read, look the scriptures up, and judge for yourself.

May the lord bless your day, in the love from Jesus, – Marana’tha, Jan Mikael !

The separation of “Israel” and the “Church”
from their two different prophetic program’s !

( by Tom Gaston )

I had a friend on the phone today who was sharing with me that he has been trying to help a friend of his see the difference between God’s program for Israel, from God’s program for the Church. He said that his friend “mixes law and grace” and pulls so many Scriptures out of context. Basically his friend is a doctrinal mess! He asked me to share some material with him which might help his friend who is so mixed up.

Therefore, I have submitted below a short study on the subject of the “separation of Israel from the Church.” The content was taken from the book called ” Things to Come” by Dr. J. Dwight Pentecost.” It is an exhaustive book which covers a vast array of bibical subjects which are very much needed to be understood in the body of Christ today. Without understanding the difference between the two different programs that God has for Israel and the Church causes many to stumble endlessly through the Scriptures.

One cannot uderstand the Scriptures in their proper context until one understands that God has different prophetic programs, one for Israel, and one for the church. They CANNOT be combined. This is where all the confusion arises from today in christian circles while trying to understand the Scripture passages.

The “Church” is not Israel, and Israel is not the Church.

From the book: “Things to come” by Dr. J. Dwight Pentecost

The kinds of seed mentioned in Scripture.

The whole issue may be clarified if one observes that the Scripture does NOT present just one kind of seed that is born to Abraham. The failure to observe this differentiation of Scripture has led to confusion.

Dr. John Walvoord writes

Quote:…….”There are, then, three difference senses in which one can be a child of Abraham. First, there is the natural lineage, or the natural seed ( physical earthly seed). This is the limited largely to the descendants of Jacob in the twelve tribes. To them God promises to be their God. To them was given the Law (Eph. 2:11,12; Rom. 9:3,4 ). To them was given the land of Israel in the Old Testament. With them God dealt in a special way. Secondly, there is the “spiritual lineage” within the natural. There are the Israelites who believed in God, who kept the law, and who met the conditions for present enjoyment of the blessings of the covenant.

Those who ultimately possess the “land” in the future millennium will also be of spiritual Israel. Thirdly, there is the spiritual seed of Abraham who are NOT natural Israelites. Here is where the “promise” to “all the families of the earth” comes in. This is the express application of this phrase in Galatians 3:6-9…….in otherwords, the children of Abraham (spiritually) who come from the heathen or Gentiles fufill that aspect of the Abrahamic Covenant which dealt with the Gentiles in the first place, NOT the promises pertaining to Israel.

The only sense in which Gentiles can be Abraham’s seed in the Galatians context is to be “in Christ Jesus” (Gal. 3:28). Thus It follows:….”And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise” (Gal. 3:29). They are Abrahams in the “spiritual sense” ONLY and heirs of the promise given “To all the families of the earth.”

While premillenarians can agree with amillenarians concerning the fact of a “spiritual seed” for Abraham which includes Gentiles, they at the same time DENY that this fulfills the promises given to the “natural seed” or that the promises to the “seed of Abraham” are fulfilled by Gentile believers. To make the belssings promised all the nations the same as the blessings promised the seed of Abraham is unwarranted conclusion….End quote.

Dwight Pentecost continues:

D. The Church is NOT Israel………”The only logical conclusion that can grow out of this discussion is that the Gentile believers of the present day, while reckoned as a seed to Abraham, are NOT the seed in which natural promises (earthly) are to be fulfilled. This is well proved by observing certain facts in the New testament usage of the words.

( 1. ) Natural Israel and the Gentiles are contrasted in the New Testament ( Acts 3:12; 4:8; 21:28; Rom. 10:1). The fact that Israel is addressed as a nation after the establishment of the church and that the term Jew continues to be used as distinct from the Church….”Give no offense either to the Jews or to the Greeks (Gentiles) or to the church of God”( 1Cor. 10:32). This shows that the Gentiles do NOT supplant Israel in God’s covenant program.

IMPORTANT! My Emphasis: T.G. ( here we see that the apostle Paul makes a clear distinction between 3 groups of people following Pentecost at which time the Church had its inception. Paul separates the following three groups…. The Jews / National or natural Israel according to their earthly lineage…….The Gentile nations……and the Church / the body of Christ ). If the Church was “Israel”, then Paul would have never made a distinction or separation between the three groups or classes of peoples and he would have eliminated the recognition of the Jew / national Israel. He would has said…….”Give no offense either to the Greeks (the Gentiles) or to the Church of God / the body of Christ.”

Dr. Pentecost continues:

( 2.) Natural Israel and the church are contrasted in the New Testament (Rom. 11:1-25; 1Cor. 10:32). In Romans chapter 11 it is shown that God has taken the nation Israel out of the place of “blessing” temporarily, but will restore them to that place of blessing when His program with the church is terminated (end of the dispensation of Grace / close of the church age). This consideration shows that the church does NOT supplant Israel in God’s covenant program.

( 3.) Jewish Christians, who would be a part of spiritual Israel, and Gentile Christians are constrasted in the New Testament (Rom. 9:6, where Paul contrasts these promises which belong to Israel according to the flesh and those which belong to Israel who enter into them by faith; Gal. 6:15-16, where Paul specifically mentions believing Jews in the benediction pronounced on the whole body of Christ).

The point seems to be well established, then, that the church today is NOT Israel in whom these covenants are fulfilled. It is strange that the amillennialist, who argues that the covenants need not be fulfilled because they were conditional and the conditions were not met by Israel, and who argues further that they will not be fulfilled because they have been historically fulfilled in the Solomic kingdom., now argues that they are being fulfilled by the church.

If they (the covenants) were conditional or already fufilled why not ignore the covenant promises entirely? Why make such an issue of it: The only answer is that the covenants form such a foundation for the whole expectation of the Word of God that they can NOT be ignored, even by those who deny their existence or their relevancy to the eschatological program.

E. The relation of the church to the covenant.

Since the church is NOT the seed in whom the “covenants” will be finally and literally fufilled, it is well to consider the question of her relation to the whole covenant program. Any relationship which the church sustains to the promises is based, not on “physical birth”, but on a “new birth” ( 2Cor. 5:17 ), and is hers because the individuals are “in Christ.” Scholar “Peters” points this out very clearly.

Quote:………”It is said that “the Seed” shall inherit the land; and we are told by many that this was fulfilled in history of the Jews under Joshua, the Judges, and the Kings. What, however, are the facts as given by the Holy Spirit ? Certainly, in the interpretation of covenant promise, Holy Writ should be allowed to be its own interpreter, that we may ascertain the meaning intended by God. Let God, then, and not man, explain:….”Now (Gal. 3:16) to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, ‘And to seeds’ as of many, but as of one, ‘ and to thy seed,’ which is Christ.” If language has any definite meaning, then, without doubt we have here the simple declaration that when God promised “Unto thy seed will I give this land,” He meant that the land of Canaan should be inherited by a single Person – pre-eminently the Seed – descended from Abraham, even Jesus Christ….End quote.

Continuing:

The church receives of the promises solely because of relationship to the “One” (Christ) in whom the promises find fulfillment. She (the church) participates with Him in all He does to bring the covenant to completion. In citing the Abrahamic covenant, Peter, in Acts 3:25, applies only the universal aspects of the covenant to those to whom he speaks (national Israel). The national aspects must await future fulfillment by the nation Israel ( Kingdom age ).

The nature of the Church

One must carefully observe certain distinctions between the church and Israel which are clearly set forth in the Scripture, but often get neglected in the consideration at hand.

(1.) There is a distinction between the professing church and national Israel. It should be observed that the professing church is composed of those who make a profession of faith in Christ. To some this profession is based on reality (genuine conversion) and to some on no reality at all ( not genuine). This latter group will go into the tribulation period, for Revelation 2:22 indicates clearly that the “unsaved professing church” will experience this visitation of wrath (God’s wrath).

Membership in the group called “national Israel” is based on a “physical birth”, and all in this group who are not saved and not removed by the “rapture” and who are alive at the time of the Rapture will, with the professing church (not genuine believers who do not truly “possess” Christ) will be subjected to the wrath of the tribulation .

( 2.) There is a distinction between the true church and professing church. The true church is composed of all those in this age who have received Christ as Saviour. Over against this we have the professing church composed of those who make a profession of receiving Christ without actually receiving Him. Only the true church will be raptured.

( 3.) There is a distinction between the true church and the true or spiritual Israel. Prior to Pentecost there were saved individuals, but there was NO church, and thus they were part of spiritual Israel, NOT the church. After the day of Pentecost and until the rapture we find the church which is His body, but NO spiritual Israel ( in unbelief nationally). After the rapture we find NO church, but a true or spiritual Israel again (come to know their messiah through judgment / tribulation period). These distinctions MUST be kept clearly in mind.

The rapture will remove, NOT all who make a profession of faith in Christ, but ONLY those who have been (truly) born again and have thus received His Life ( Christ’s eternal life – John 5:24 ). The unbelieving portion of the visible church (apostate), together with unbelievers in the nation Israel, will go into the tribulation period.

Since the Church is the body, of which Christ is the Head (Eph. 1:22; 5:23; Col. 1:18 ), the bride, of which He is the Bridegroom ( 1Cor. 11:2; Eph. 5:23 ), the object of His love (Eph. 5:25), the branch of which He is the Root and Stem (John 15:5), the building, of which He is the Foundation and Cornerstone (1Cor. 3:9; Eph. 2:19-22 ), there exists between the believer and the Lord a union and a unity. The believer is no longer separated from Him, but brought into the closest oneness with Him. If the church is in the “seventieth week”, she is then subjected to the wrath, judgment, and indignation which characterizes the period, and because of her oneness with Christ, He (Christ), likewise, would be subjected to that same visitation ( a recipient of His own wrath).
This is impossible according to 1John 4:17, for He can not be brought into judgment again………………………………………………….

……Inasmuch as the church has been perfected and delivered from all judgment (Rom. 8:1; John 5:24; 1John 4:17), if she is subjected to judgment again the promises of God would be of none effect and the death of Christ would be ineffectual. who would dare to assert that the death of Christ could fail to accomplish its purpose? While the members – (of the body of Christ may be imperfect while living in this physical body of death – Rom. 8:9-11), yet the church, which is His body, has a perfect standing ( in spirit Rom. 9:10 ) in Christ and could NOT need such cleansing.

The nature of the testing in the “seventieth week”, as stated in Revelation 3:10, is NOT to bring the individual to cleansing, but to reveal the degradation and need of the unregenerate heart. The nature ( and the eternal postion of the church in Christ) prevents such a testing ( since she is already declared righteous by faith in Christ / Rom. 3:22; 2Cor. 5:21).

( 2.) Again, Revelation 13:7 makes it clear that all who are in the seventieth week are brought into sugjection to the Beast and through him to Satan, who gives the Beast His power. If the church were in this period she would be subjected to Satan, and Christ would either lose His place as Head, or He, Himself, because of His union with the Church, would be likewise subjected to Satan’s authority ( this is impossible). Such a thing is unthinkable! Thus it is concluded that the nature of the church and the completness of her salvation prevents her from being in the seventieth week.

G. The concept of the church as a mystery. Closely related to the previous consideration is the concept given to us in the New Testament that the church is a mystery. It was no mystery that God was going to provide salvation for the Jews, nor that Gentiles would be blessed in salvation. The fact that God was going to form Jews and Gentiles alike into one body was never revealed in the Old Testament and forms the mystery of which Paul speaks in Ephesians 3:1-7; Romans 16:25-27; Colllossians 1:16-29.

This whole mystery program was not revealed until after the rejection of Christ by Israel. It was after the rejection in Matthew 12:23-24 that the Lord first makes a prophecy of the coming church in Matthew 16:18. It is after the rejection of the Cross that the church had its inception in Acts chapter 2. It was after the final rejection by Israel that God called out Paul to be the Apostle of the Gentiles through whom this mystery of the nature of the church is revealed.

The church is manifestly an “interruption” of God’s program for Israel, which was not brought into being until Israel’s rejection of the offer of the Kingdom. It must logically follow that this mystery program must itself be brought to a conclusion before God can resume His dealing with the nation Israel, as has been shown previously He will do.

They mystery program, which was so distinct in its inception, will certainly be separate at its conclusion (resurrection / Rapture program of God and the end of the church age). This program must be concluded BEFORE God resumes and culminates His program for Israel. This mystery concept of the church makes a pretribulation rapture a necessity.

The distinction between Israel and the church. Chafer ( a scholar ) has set forth twenty-four contrasts between Israel and the church which show us conclusively that these “two groups” can NOT be united into one, but that they must be distinguished as two separate entities with whom God is dealing in a special program . These contrasts may be outlined as follows:

( 1.) The extent of Biblical revelation: Israel – nearly four-fifths of the Bible;…………the Church, about one-fifth.

( 2.) The Divine purpose: Israel – the earthly promises in the covenants:……..The Church, the heavenly promises in the gospel.

( 3.) The seed of Abraham: Israel, the physical seed, of whom some become a spiritual seed;………the Church, a spiritual seed.

( 4.) Birth: Israel, physical birth that produces a relationship;……the Church, a spiritual birth that brings relationship.

( 5.) Headship: Israel, Abraham;…………the Church Christ.

( 6.) Covenants: Israel, Abrahamic and all the following covenants:………..the Church, indirectly related to the Abrahamic and new covenants.

( 7.) Nationality; Israel, one nation;………..the Church, from all nations.

( 8.) Divine dealing: Israel, national and individual;……………the Church, individual only.

( 9.) Dispensations: Israel, seen in all ages from Abraham;…………the Church, seen only in this present age.

(10.) Ministry: Israel, no missionary activity and no gospel to preach ( nationally in unbelief during the church age )……………The Church, a commission to fufill.

(11.) The death of Christ: Israel, guilty nationally, to be saved by it ( nationally ) still future;…………The Church perfectly saved by it now.

(12.) The Father: Israel, by a peculiar relationship God was Father to the nation:……….The Church, we are related individually to God as Father.

(13.) Christ: Israel, Messiah, Immanuel, King;………….the Church, Saviour, Lord, Bridegroom, Head.

(14.) The Holy Spirit: Israel, came upon ( not indwelt ) some temporarily;………the Church, In dwells all in Christ.

(15.) Governing principle: Israel, Mosaic law system;…………the Church, grace system.

(16.) Divine enablement: Israel, none;……………the Church, the indwelling Holy Spirit.

(17.) Two farewell discourses; Israel, Olivet discourse:…………….the Church, upper room discourse.

(18.) The promise of Christ’s return: Israel, in power and glory for judgment;………the Church, to receive us to Himself.

(19.) Position: Israel, a servant;…………the Church, members of the family.

(20.) Christ’s earthly reign: Israel, subjects;……………..the Church, co-reigners with Christ.

(21.) Priesthood: Israel, had a priesthood;……….the Church, is a priesthood.

(22.) Marriage: Israel, unfaithful wife;…………the Church, the Bride.

(23.) Judgments: Israel, must face judgment;…………the Church, delivered from all judgments.

(24.) Positions in eternity: Israel, spirits of just men made perfect in the new earth;……..the Church, church of the firstborn in the new heavens.

These clear contrasts, which show the distinction between Israel and the Church, make it impossible to identify the two ( groups) into one prophetic program, which it is necessary to do if the church goes through the seventieth week. These distinctions give further support to the pretribulation rapture postion ( End quote ).

There is so much more which I could share here, but this should be sufficient enough to show that God has two different prophetic programs. One for Israel, and one for the Church, which must be kept separate in order to understand many things in the Scriptures.

If many christians had the understanding on this subject correctly from the Scriptures, then they would forsake the false teaching that some Christians are going through the tribulation period, and that only those who are “worthy” will be taken at the time of the resurrection / Rapture. I can destroy this false teaching in 10 minutes. Luke 21:36 ( be found worthy to escape) is one Scripture which is grossly misinterpreted for the Church today, but which has NO application whatsoever to the Church.

The problems is this, that many won’t even accept the Scriptures that are clear and which teach that “all who are in Christ” are participating in the resurrection. Christ is coming “with” ( the dead in Christ) and “for” ( the living in Christ) because 1Thess. chapter 4:13-18 shows this clearly. Romans chapter 8:9-11 silences those who teach that some will be left behind. Paul explains very clearly in Rom. 8:9-11 that all those who possess the Spirit of Christ will be resurrected unto life by God’s indwelling Holy Spirit which indwells every believer, and who has also “sealed” them forever ( John 14:16,17; 1Cor. 6:19,20; 2Cor. 1:21,22; Eph. 1:13, 4:30).

I could talk and share Scriptures for hours here on this subject. Once a person understands that God has two different programs, one for Isarel, and one for the Church, then ALL the CONFUSION goes away about “who goes” and “who stays” at the time of the resurrection. I have written extensively about this subject over the years and sadly many have NOT listened and neither are they willing to receive solid bible teaching because they would rather hold onto their “error” than to bow the knee to the clear plain text of Scripture, which teaches otherwise.

In Christ, Tom Gaston

Written by twelvebooks

July 15, 2010 at 8:52 pm

July14, 2010 Aliens, UFO or Demons and Fallen Angels Which Are They?

The interview whose link is given here is with Gary Stearman and Tom Horn and L.A. Marzulli and the topic is a fascinating one with three brilliant minds discussing a topic foreign to most people in the world.

A must see video less than 30 minutes long

Nando

http://www.prophecyinthenews.com/Telecast

http://www.bing.com/videos/watch/video/ufo-over-chinese-airport/20l0xekk?q=UFO+sighting&rel=msn&from=en-us_msnhp&gt1=42007

Written by twelvebooks

July 15, 2010 at 12:18 am