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Archive for August 7th, 2010

Aug 7, 2010 Another rebutal to Estefen

Another valid point.

Nando

Dave (7 Aug 2010)
RE: Stefen Lopez (6 Aug 2010),”2015 vs. 2016, 2017, 2018 and beyond…


As you stated :
The fundamental base of the 2008-15 timeframe is Daniel 9:24-27 and the 7 weeks. Christ returns 7 weeks, which is 49 Hebrew years, 17460 days, “from the command to restore and build Jerusalem”. That 17460 days takes us to Feast of Atonement/Yom Kippur Sept. 23, 2015. End of story.

I would like to bring to your attention that it was in 1969 that the command went forth to rebuild the old Jerusalem or the Jewish Quarter”!  I totally agree with you just not the date it is to start from as this states http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Quarter_%28Jerusalem%29.

In 1969 the Jewish Quarter Development Company was established under the auspices of the Construction and Housing Ministry to rebuild the desolate Jewish Quarter

We need to have the right dates to count from.  If we are to use the year of 1969 it would once again bring us to the year 2017!!!

Grace and peace to all,

Dave,

Written by twelvebooks

August 7, 2010 at 11:52 pm

Jay (7 Aug 2010) “RE: Stefen: “2015 vs. 2016, 2017, 2018 and beyond…””

Jay posted today a rebuttal to the time frame of the Second Coming in 2015 by Estefen.

The point of view that the seven weeks of years have already happened in the First Coming is valid. It can not be said that it will also happen again in the Second Coming.

Nando

http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/aug2010/jay87.htm

Jay (7 Aug 2010)
“RE: Stefen: “2015 vs. 2016, 2017, 2018 and beyond…””


Re: http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/aug2010/stefenl86.htm

Stefen wrote: “The fundamental base of the 2008-15 timeframe is Daniel 9:24-27 and the 7 weeks. Christ returns 7 weeks, which is 49 Hebrew years, 17460 days, “from the command to restore and build Jerusalem”. That 17460 days takes us to Feast of Atonement/Yom Kippur Sept. 23, 2015. End of story.”

Hardly the end of the story. That entire statement is based on the assumption that there is some expectation for God to repeat that 7 week period, a 7 week period that was fulfilled in the OT times after the original command went out to rebuild Jerusalem.

Could that 7 weeks period be relevant again. MAYBE. But such is certainly not guaranteed or concrete, nor even reasonable to expect considering it was already fulfilled and there is just one 7-year week remaining to be fulfilled.

But at least you just admitted your entire basis for the 2015/2016 belief is that one passage, which speaks of a prophecy already fulfilled. There is no textual evidence that we should be expecting it to be fulfilled or used again, especially since having 69 weeks fulfilled and one week remaining, we are yet to have the 70th week fulfilled so there’s no logical reason why would God want to have a repeat fulfillement of 7 weeks that were already accomplished long ago.

Look, I think we all would find it nice to see something significant happen in 2015, but there’s no actual evidence it would be the Second Coming. What you’re positing is in no way conclusive or even evidenced in the text itself, it is simply your opinion without any real Biblical merit. Yes, you are using Biblical texts for your calculating, but your actual claim that we should expect another fulfillment of weeks 62-69 doesn’t have any actual Biblical support.

And considering it conflicts with all the real evidence such as dates, chronologies, timelines, and current events, that all line up with the 2017-2018 timeframe for a Second Coming, again we’re back to my original question to Ron Reese a couple days ago: Why are a couple people who think we’re already in the 70th week (contrary to the Biblical evidence that shows we won’t be here for it, as a number of folks have been kind enough to point out in the past couple days including the post by Kevin Heckle today), trying to push their view to the point of trying to overrule the actual evidence which shows us a 2010-2017 or 2011-2018 timeframe as the correct fit for the 70th week? Seems like such would be more damaging than helpful. Please lighten up a bit on the 2015 rhetoric.

Let us reason together.

Thank you.

Grace and peace.

Written by twelvebooks

August 7, 2010 at 11:49 pm

Day (7 Aug 2010) “To: Daniel Lizarraga Re: “We are not in the seventieth week. We are not under the Law.””

We are not in the Tribulation article. I agree with this statement. Also show me the two witnesses and proof that we are.

Nando

http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/aug2010/day87.htm

Day (7 Aug 2010)
“To: Daniel Lizarraga  Re: “We are not in the seventieth week. We are not under the Law.””


Amen Daniel ! Agreed!  We are NOT in the Tribulation !

If one could ask those who are promoting the idea that we are now in the Tribulation, to step away from Eschatology, and answer this question, from only the perspective of Christian theology, “DOES THE CHURCH EXIST UNDER THE LAW OF MOSES ?” They should be able to answer “NO.”

Further, that “NO”, considering that this concept is a cornerstone of God’s plan for the Church, as expressed by Jesus, the Disciples, and both understood and followed throughout 2000 years of Christian history, should be an emphatic “NO!”

Yet, their argument proposes that either:

1) The Church now exists, not under Grace, but under the Law (if, as they state,  we are now in the Tribulation, which clearly is the time of wrath upon the earth; hardly congruent with Grace), or

2) The Tribulation occurs during the Age of Grace, (and Daniel’s post has clearly scripturally refutes this possibility), or

3) During the Tribulation, the Church is in the Age of Grace while the world is under the Law (and the day of wrath…)

It would seem necessary that their position regarding the placement of the Church, fall into one of these three position: under Law, under Grace, or incomprehensibly, Both.

All are historically untenable positions. All lack the full council of the Word of God.

For 2000 years, scholars have recognized that separation (who is Jesus Christ) between the Law and Grace. Perhaps it may be proposed that at some future time the two will meld, but not on this side of the Second Coming.

If the Church now exists and operates under the Age of Grace, she is not under the Law, and consequently, as your article scripturally shows, not in the Tribulation.

To suggest otherwise violates all traditional understanding of The Law, as differentiated from Grace, and more importantly, contradicts the whole redemptive program, as explicitly stated in the promises of the Old Testament and the fulfillment thereof and future application of those promises in the New.

(Daniel W. Lizarraga’s referenced post:  http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/aug2010/daniell86.htm

Written by twelvebooks

August 7, 2010 at 10:29 pm

Aug 7, 2010 Obama’s speech before the election of 2008

This is the speech Obama gave one week before the elections of 2008. Good to have as a reminder of the evil that has overcome us.

Nando

http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/aug2010/mikec87.htm

Mike Curtiss (7 Aug 2010)
“Confirming the Covenant with Death”


Obama Speech in Chester, Pennsylvania: Transcript (10-28-08)

Full Transcript.

After decades of broken politics in Washington, eight years of failed policies from George Bush, and twenty-one months of a campaign that has taken us from the rocky coast of Maine to the sunshine of California, we are one week away from change in America.

In one week, you can turn the page on policies that have put the greed and irresponsibility of Wall Street before the hard work and sacrifice of folks on Main Street.

In one week, you can choose policies that invest in our middle-class, create new jobs, and grow this economy from the bottom-up so that everyone has a chance to succeed; from the CEO to the secretary and the janitor; from the factory owner to the men and women who work on its floor.

In one week, you can put an end to the politics that would divide a nation just to win an election; that tries to pit region against region, city against town, Republican against Democrat; that asks us to fear at a time when we need hope.

In one week, at this defining moment in history, you can give this country the change we need.

We began this journey in the depths of winter nearly two years ago, on the steps of the Old State Capitol in Springfield, Illinois. Back then, we didn’t have much money or many endorsements. We weren’t given much of a chance by the polls or the pundits, and we knew how steep our climb would be.

But I also knew this. I knew that the size of our challenges had outgrown the smallness of our politics. I believed that Democrats and Republicans and Americans of every political stripe were hungry for new ideas, new leadership, and a new kind of politics – one that favors common sense over ideology; one that focuses on those values and ideals we hold in common as Americans.

Most of all, I believed in your ability to make change happen. I knew that the American people were a decent, generous people who are willing to work hard and sacrifice for future generations. And I was convinced that when we come together, our voices are more powerful than the most entrenched lobbyists, or the most vicious political attacks, or the full force of a status quo in Washington that wants to keep things just the way they are.

Twenty-one months later, my faith in the American people has been vindicated. That’s how we’ve come so far and so close – because of you. That’s how we’ll change this country – with your help. And that’s why we can’t afford to slow down, sit back, or let up for one day, one minute, or one second in this last week. Not now. Not when so much is at stake.

Written by twelvebooks

August 7, 2010 at 10:21 pm

Aug 7, 2010 Which is the Jubilee year 2016 or 2017?

Which is the Jubilee year? The article published here explains very well how the Jubilee years are to be counted. Please see his chart at the end of the article and read the asterisk * .

There is an article posted a while back about the Jubilee by Jim Bramlet and the link is below.

http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/july2010/jim729-1.htm

The new article by Stefan Lopez and the link follows this,

http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/aug2010/stefenl87.htm

Stefen L (7 Aug 2010)
Sept. 23, 2015 And Jubilee…Bridging The Gap by Making a Match.


Hi all,

I’ll try to be brief, but there are inconsistency’s with the 7 weeks of Daniel 9 which point us September 23, 2015, verses our idea of when Jubilee is to occur. I believe when Christ returns, everything has to match. Since the Bible is the inspired word of God without error, would it make sense for Christ to return on a date which fulfills the 7 weeks of Daniel 9, but not Jubilee? Or would it make sense for Christ to return on a Jubilee, but on a day that has nothing to do with the 7 weeks of Daniel 9? I don’t think so. I feel all pieces of the puzzle have to fit, and currently there is a 1 year discrepancy between the 7 weeks date of Sept. 23, 2015, and the suggested Jubilee of 2016-17.

And of course there is, both the 7 weeks, and Jubilee are being counted from 1967, but the 7 weeks is 49 years, and the Jubilee is 50 year. Odd and even numbers don’t mix, and so there a 1 year discrepancy. There are no discrepancies with God, and He doesn’t make mistakes. Its our interpretation that is wrong.

So without going into to much detail, I believe the Shmita years, and understanding them hold the key. God instructed Moses that every 7th year was to be a Sabbath rest year (a shmita), but that the year after every 7th shmita (49th year) was to be the Jubilee. The debate is that every 7th year is to be a Sabbath year…indefinitely, but by adding a “foreign” 50th year, it alters that ongoing cycle of “every 7th year”.

I was reading about this and found that there is some debate about this in Rabbinical and other circles. And so the solution is counting that 50th Jubilee year as also the 1st year of the ongoing 7 year cycles, such that from the 7th Shmita year (or 49th year), to the next Jubilee, (not the one that would occur the next year), there is in fact the 50 year Jubilee cycle, held within perspective of the ongoing 7th year Sabbaths.

Its kind of confusing to explain so I made a chart attempting to describe it otherwise this post will have no end! The thing is the bible does not contradict this view, and so therefore it is not “out there”. And, so when we adopt this approach we find that the 7 weeks of Daniel 9 leading up to Sept. 23, 2015 fit perfectly with 2015-16 being Jubilee, and 1966-67 being Jubilee. So Daniel 9 is fulfilled, in context with the Jubilee requirements, and Jubilee is also fulfilled in context with the “every 7th year” law and the 7 weeks of Daniel 9. If anyone can find real biblical proof that this is wrong…let me know.

Stefen Lopez

Shmita.pdf

Both articles end up with different dates for the Jubilee.

Nando

Written by twelvebooks

August 7, 2010 at 10:01 pm