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Archive for June 8th, 2011

June 8, 2011 Is the true Pentecost today June 8 or in June 12, or in July 31?

The date where God’s Pentecost is has a very important connotation if God has set the Rapture for Pentecost.

Today the 8th of June is the date marked by Jews as being Shavuot or Pentecost and this is 50 days after April 19 where the Jews celebrated Passover. The church celebrates Pentecost on June 12 which is Sunday and it is 49 days after Easter. The following articles argue that the true date of Pentecost should be established by the summer crop of wheat and that it should fall after counting 50 days pass the seven Sabbath count.

Therefore the place Pentecost on July 30-31. Their scriptural prove and interpretation seems correct to me but I am not a bible scholar.

If we assume their conclusion is correct and it looks logical then we have more than 50 days to wait for the Rapture to come.

Please see the two articles that explain their position and thank you Eliane B  for sharing with us this knowledge.

Nando

http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/june2011/elianeb68-3.htm

Eliane B (8 June 2011)
Correct Shavuot / Pentecost is on the 29th day of the 4th Hebrew month, which is July 30/31st in 2011


Hi Doves,

The correct Pentecost (Shavuot) according to Scripture falls on the 29th day of the 4th Hebrew month, which in 2011 falls on July 30/31st.

In Bible times, there was no Gregorian calendar.  There were three types of days: work days, Sabbaths and New Moon days. All Sabbaths fell on the 8th, 15th, 22nd and 29th day of the Hebrew month.

Philo kept the Lunar Sabbath. Check here: http://lunarsabbath.us/id3.html and here: http://lunarsabbath.info/id3.html

Nando

http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/june2011/elianeb68-2.htm

Eliane B (8 June 2011)
Nature proves Pentecost in the Fourth month


Reference: http://lunarsabbath.us/id7.html

Nature proves Pentecost IN THE FOURTH MONTH.

On the day of Pentecost when they were being accused of being drunk with new wine, which is not found in the third month for the traditional Pentecost, Peter said this is that, which was spoken by the prophet Joel and when you look at what the prophet Joel said, you will see where he said that the floors would be full of wheat and the fats full of wine,  Once again there is no new wine in the third month to fulfill this prophecy, therefore it had to have been a 4th month Pentecost because it is agriculturally IMPOSIBLE for the Fats to be full of wine in the 3rd month. This is an absolute, and this alone proves Pentecost in the fourth month, which is 50 days after the seventh Sabbath complete.  Leviticus 23:16

Here is the Prophecy found in the 2nd chapter of Joel:

24And the floors shall be full of wheat, and the vats shall overflow with wine and oil. 25And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpillar, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you. 26And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name YHWH your MIGHTY One, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be ashamed. 27And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am YHWH your Mighty One, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.

28And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: 29And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. 30And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. 31The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of YHWH come. 32And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name YHWH shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance.

Notice the prophecy was for the outpouring of the Holy Spirit at a prosperous time when the floors would be full of wheat and the wine presses full of wine and there’s no wine in the fats in the third month, this also is an absolute.  The wheat AND wine were part of this prophecy, after all it was Pentecost when this prophecy was fulfilled in the book of Acts, 2nd ch. Says:

1And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place…….

13Others mocking said, these men are full of new wine.

14But Peter , standing up with the eleven , lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem , be this known unto you, and hearken to my words :

15For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.

16But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

17And it shall come to pass in the last days

My main point is there is posivetily no new wine in the third month, so Joel’s prophecy had to be referring to the fourth month and furthermore, there are NO scriptures that will support new wine as being last year’s wine or any other than the definition found in Strong’s,

G1098

γλεῦκος

gleukos

glyoo’-kos

Akin to G1099; sweet wine, that is, (properly) must (fresh juice), but used of the more saccharine (and therefore highly inebriating) fermented wine:—new wine.

The only new wine found in Scripture whether fermented are not, is wine that is still in the cluster or in the fats/wine presses or as our Savior refers to as not been put in the new bottles yet, and if it is put in old bottles it will burst them. This is much like the winter wheat which cannot be found in Scripture, neither can new wine be found as wine that came out of the old store or last year’s wine because by then it is not new wine and does not fit the definition found in Scripture.

There is no New wine (sweet wine) in the third moon (grapes were not ripe yet) but were at the end of the fourth moon

The prophet Joel could have said, the floors shall be full of wheat and left out about the winepresses being full of wine on this day, but He did not because it is true.

Author: Brother Arnold, website: http://lunarsabbath.us

Nando

http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/june2011/elianeb68-1.htm

Eliane B (8 June 2011)
“Spring wheat is harvested in the SUMMER. Only winter or autumn wheat is harvested in the spring.”


Reference: http://lunarsabbath.us/id14.html

The Hebrew Word for unto/until in Leviticus 23:16 is “ad”Some people try to argue the Hebrew word unto/until/ “ad”, supports counting 50 days from the wave sheaf instead of 50 days AFTER the seventh Sabbath, Leviticus 23:16.When you understand that there are TWO wheat harvests, one in the spring, about two weeks after Barley harvest and one in the summer about 50 days after the one in the spring, it will better help you with the word “until” which brings us to the question,

Which Wheat Harvest Is The Scriptural Pentecost Wheat???

Seeing as there are two types of wheat harvest and Pentecost is the firstfruits of wheat harvest, it is the duty of the serious truth seekers to find out which of these TWO wheat harvest was originally used for Pentecost.  One of these wheat harvests takes place in the spring around the second and third month and the other wheat harvest takes place in the summer around the fourth and fifth month.

Leviticus 23:16 has been a major topic for those opposing the fourth month summer wheat harvest in favor of the winter wheat harvest which is sown in the fall and reaped in the springtime, about two weeks after Barley harvest.  They Focus on the Hebrew word UNTIL and think that is support their position even though the only conclusive wheat harvest found in Scripture is in the summer, NOT spring. See chapter on summer wheat harvest.

Leviticus 23:15-16 says you shall COUNT unto you from the morrow after the Sabbath from the day that you brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven Sabbaths shall be complete: Even unto/until the morrow AFTER the seventh Sabbath SHALL YOU NUMBER 50 days; AND YE SHALL OFFER a new meat offering unto YHWH.

Notice it is AFTER the seventh Sabbath that you number the 50 days.

If we were to number 50 days AFTER the seventh Sabbath complete, it would obviously bring us to a new meat offering of the summer wheat harvest, which is 50 days beyond the spring wheat harvest.  But if we numbered ONE day after the seventh Sabbath complete it would obviously bring us to the spring wheat harvest.  This is an absolute.  The question is, how did ancient Israel number, one day, or 50 days after the seventh Sabbath complete, i.e. which wheat harvest is the scripture referring to???

If we sit Leviticus 23:16 to the side for a minute and go on to other scriptures to see how the Ancient Israelites interpreted this verse, it should end the Pentecost debate forever. Scripture will interpret Scripture and the evidence is conclusive that they understood that they were to count 50 days AFTER the seventh Sabbath complete, and the first fruit would be from the summer wheat harvest.  Let’s examine some eyewitnesses found in Scripture.

Aaron, YHWH’S High Priest, and the children of Israel were eyewitnesses as to how Leviticus 23:16 should be interpreted and they obviously counted 50 days AFTER the seventh Sabbath complete because when Aaron declared the feast/Chag to YHWH, it was in the fourth month at the time of the summer wheat harvest, NOT the winter wheat that is harvested in the spring.  This is found in Exodus 32:5 when Aaron said tomorrow is a chag/feast to YHWH and it was at the end of Moses’ 40 days and 40 nights in the mount.  And on top of that, it was the exact same day that the law that YHWH had written with his own finger, was given to Moses.  Pentecost commemorates the giving of the law and it was not given, signed sealed and delivered until the end of the 40 days and 40 nights. See Exodus 31:18 and Deuteronomy 9:11, for proof.
The Prophet Joel when referring to the outpouring of the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost/firstfruits, says that the floors would be full of wheat and the wine presses full of wine and this was fulfilled in the book of Acts where they were being accused of being drunk on the new wine.  This had to be the summer wheat Pentecost because there is no new wine in the third month.  See chapter on Joel.

Fenton must have understood this in his translation.

My Bullinger lexicon says until, as long as, marking the continuance of an action up to the time of another action.  We have an action of COUNTING seven Sabbath even unto the morrow after the seventh Sabbath and then we have another action of NUMBERING 50 days.

The first action is to count the Sabbath and the next action is to number 50 days.

The second thing they were to do was to number 50 days.

The third thing they were to do was to bring a new meat offering.

They were not instructed to count seven Sabbaths complete and then bring a new meat offering.  They were instructed to count seven Sabbaths complete up “unto” the day after the seventh Sabbath, and then they were instructed to number 50 days but not until after they counted seven Sabbaths first.  They were instructed to bring a new meat offering but not until after they numbered 50 days which numbering began after the seventh Sabbath complete.

If the 50 day count were to begin from the wave sheaf, it would read, “even unto the morrow “after” the seventh Sabbath “shall ye bring a new meat offering”.  But He does not say shall ye bring a new meat offering “after” the seventh Sabbath, it says shall ye number 50 days.

Every count must have a beginning and ending point, and I think we all agree that the beginning point for the seven Sabbaths complete begins on the morrow after the Sabbath when the priest waves the wave sheaf.  The question is, where does this count end and the next count begin? As I have shown above, there are two count mentioned in Leviticus 23 and they were not to offer the new meat offering until “both” counts were completed.  If we count seven Sabbaths complete and ”then” bring a new meat offering, we are partial in the Law, but if we count seven Sabbaths complete up unto the morrow after the seventh Sabbath and then number 50 days instead of one day and then bring the new meat offering, we have fulfilled the Law.

Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest: 11And he shall wave the sheaf before YHWH, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the Sabbath the priest shall wave it.

15And ye shall count unto you from the morrow ”after” the Sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven Sabbaths shall be complete: 16Even unto the morrow ”after” the seventh Sabbath shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto YHWH.

The first count goes up “even” unto/until the morrow after the seventh Sabbath and “ends”, the next count begins and goes for 50 days and the text is understood as saying, “the morrow after the seventh Sabbath shall ye number 50 days,” one reason it is to be understood this way is because the morrow after the seventh Sabbath is “not” included in the first count of the seven Sabbaths, the seven Sabbaths goes up until the morrow after and no further and “then” ye number 50 days, counting the morrow, and then you bring the new meet offering and not before. i.e. the first count goes even up to the morrow after the seventh Sabbath then stops and then you NUMBER 50 days and bring a new meet offering after you number the 50th day.

The question is, when do we bring the new meat offering? Is it after we number 50 days?  The answer is yes!  But when do we began to number the 50 days?  Do we number the 50 days from the morrow after the 15th Sabbath/16th?  Or do we number the 50 days from the morrow AFTER the seventh Sabbath complete? Is it one day after the seventh Sabbath complete or is it after numbering 50 days after the seventh Sabbath complete?  The Scripture says, “Even unto the morrow after the seventh Sabbath complete shall you number 50 days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto the Almighty.”  Leviticus 23:16.   How much plainer can it get?  Most people don’t understand the Hebrew or English grammar.  The children of Israel obviously understood it like it says, number 50 days AFTER the seventh Sabbath complete because they celebrated it exactly 50 days after the seventh lunar Sabbath according to Exodus 32:5.  They were to celebrate the feast unto the one that brought them out of Egypt but they celebrated it unto a golden calf, saying it was the one that brought them out of Egypt. Exodus 32:4.

Another Honest Look at Leviticus 23 concerning the Count to PentecostThis chapter will conclusively prove from Scripture and Scripture along that there are TWO counts to Pentecost; one count is of seven Sabbaths and another count of 50 days, two separate counts.Before we look to see what the instructions in Leviticus 23 is saying, let’s see what it is not saying.

It does not say that we are to count seven Sabbaths complete “and then” bring a new meat offering, as the traditional Pentecosters try to make it say.  You have to count seven Sabbaths complete “first” and “then” number either one or 50 days and the following will tell which.

Once again it does not say “even unto the morrow “after” the seventh Sabbath “shall ye” bring a new meat offering,” but  He did say “even unto the morrow “after” the seventh Sabbath “shall ye number 50” days and bring a new meat offering.  Leviticus 23:16 i.e. after the seventh Sabbath complete shall ye number 50 days, but not before and then bring the new meat offering but not unto you number the 50 days after the seventh Sabbath complete.

The morrow after the seventh Sabbath is not even a part of the first count because it says even “unto/until” the morrow after the seventh Sabbath complete.

I had an e-mail discussion with another lunar Sabbatarian who believes in lunar Sabbaths but not the 50 days after the seventh Sabbath Pentecost.  Another Brother, Abraham, wrote the following.
Brother David,

You can check Koehler and Baumgartner yourself. AD can be a conjunction.
Are Koehler and Baumgartner not scholars?
Abraham

The e-mail also says,
4. The Hebrew word AD can have meanings that support a 50 day count after seven weeks. I use the Koehler and Baumgartner lexicon. The following expressions in all capital letters come from their lexicon.

LATER IN THE FUTURE, count fifty days (AD has a future tense.)
AND then count fifty days (AD can be a conjunction.)
JUST BEFORE counting fifty days, count seven weeks”

It seems the above scholars along with Bullinger, whom I will quote shortly, understood that Leviticus 23:16 could be understood as the children of Israel understood it in Exodus 32:5.

Not only these scholars but The Ferrar Fenton Bible actually Says,

“You shall also count for yourselves from the day after the Sabbath that you bring the wave sheaf, seven Sabbaths.  They must be complete.  THEN AFTER the seventh Sabbath, you shall count fifty days, when you shall present a new offering to the EVERY LIVING” Leviticus 23:15-16

Mr. Fenton is a scholar who makes it very clear that the 50 days are numbered AFTER the seventh Sabbath and that is exactly how the children of Israel understood it according to Exodus 32:5.

My Bullinger Lexicon says, “until, as long as, marking the continuance of an ACTION up to the time of ANOTHER “action”.  Here, followed by the Gen ., until, unto, marking the terminus ad quem, and spoken both of time and place.”

This is how I understood the words before I even seen the definition.  You have an ACTION of COUNTING seven Sabbaths, even UNTO the morrow AFTER the seventh Sabbath and then ye have ANOTHER action to NUMBER 50 days; and then ye shall bring a new meat offering unto the Almighty. If there was only ONE action of numbering from the wave sheaf, I believe the Scripture would read to number 50 days from the wave sheaf instead of 50 days from the morrow after the seventh Sabbath but the first action is to COUNT seven Sabbaths and the second action is to NUMBER 50 days.  Even if the morrow after the seventh Sabbath was included in the first count for the seven Sabbaths, which would make the seven Sabbaths inexact, it still teaches to number 50 days AFTER the seventh Sabbath because of the Hebrew word shall is ALWAYS future tense.  See Chapter on “shall”.

Adding to the above, the word “shall” is ALWAYS future tense and this goes along with the above.  Shall ye number 50 days, in Leviticus 23:16, is future tense and besides that, even unto the morrow after the seventh Sabbath complete is 49 days NOT 50, because if the word means up until a certain point but not including that point, it would bring you to the beginning of the morrow after the seventh Sabbath was complete which would not be 50 days.  If the word meant up until a certain point and including that point, it would make the seventh Sabbath’s inexact as the noted Hebrew scholar Rashi says in his commentary on this verse.  I say the verse could be understood to count seven Sabbaths up until the morrow after the seventh Sabbath, and then INCLUDING the morrow after the seventh Sabbath shall you number 50 days and then bring a new meat offering.  Either way you want to look at it, the children of Israel understood it to be 50 days after the seventh Sabbath.

Remember there is a difference between “counting” and “numbering”.  Even though Strong’s concordance uses the same number for both words, they are TWO different words in the Hebrew interlinear. There is also a difference between weeks and days. You can count seven cars and then count to 50 and then cross the street.  You can count seven Sabbaths and then number 50 days and then bring the new meat offering to the Almighty.  You do not count seven Sabbaths and then number ONE day, but you count seven Sabbaths and then number 50 days not one day.  See Chapter on numbering and counting.

The above scholars and translations are in Harmony with the Chag that Aaron and the children of Israel proclaimed in Exodus 32:5 which was 50 days after the seventh lunar Sabbath, Leviticus 23:16 and this brings you to the summer wheat harvest.
These translations are also in harmony with the new wine that was present on the day of Pentecost in the second chapter of the book of Acts and as the prophet Joel prophesied in the second chapter of Joel etc. there are no ripe grapes in the third month and neither is there Chag mentioned in the third month of the traditional third month Pentecost.
These scholars and these translations are also in harmony with the Pentecost summer wheat harvest in the FOURTH MONTH, mentioned by our Saviour in the book of John.

These scholars and translations are also in harmony with the many other things that I have mentioned in the discussion of Pentecost.
After all is said and done it really doesn’t matter how the scholars understood the Hebrew word in Leviticus 23:16 but what does matter is how the children of Israel understood it according to Exodus 32:5 and is confirmed in nature itself.

Author: Brother Arnold, website: http://lunarsabbath.us

Nando