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Archive for February 4th, 2012

Barry Amundsen (4 Feb 2012) “Re: Nando, Gary Stearman’s answer about whether all Christians will go in the rapture”

Thanks for your detailed and well thought response. I feel confident that at the time of the Rapture Jesus will be perfect in His selection of the church members that form His body and the Bride of Christ.

There is no doubt in my mind that there are going to be millions  if not billions of future believers during the Apocalypse and that those who die at this time will be resurrected. I am not sure that those alive at the time will be Raptured. My question is who are accepted into the Kingdom to replenish the earth if all the believers are Raptured prior to the Second Coming?

It is also clear to me that the wrath of God is reserved for the evil and non believers not for those that believe, so that presents a dilemma does it not?

It is good to ponder these questions in that it gives us a clearer understanding of the Word and the thruth.

Nando

http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/feb2012/barrya24.htm

Barry Amundsen (4 Feb 2012)
Re: Nando, Gary Stearman’s answer about whether all Christians will go in the rapture


Ultimately time will answer this question for us. Nevertheless, I feel it important to give again an answer to the position given by Gary Stearman in the video posted by Nando. http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/feb2012/nando23-1.htm
Firstly why does Mr. Stearman react negatively to the rapture being referred to as an escape when Jesus Himself referred to it this way?
Luke 21:
 35.  For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36.  Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
I sure want to escape!
But that aside, he then uses 1 Corinthians 15 to suggest that all the church will go at once when the rapture happens. This is the very scripture that tells us that not all go at the same time because it says that all will go in their own order or rank according to the firstfruit type in the Old Testament.
There were three firstfruit offerings not just one as though Christ was the complete fulfillment of that when He rose and ascended. He was the first part as well as those who came out of the graves after His resurrection and ascended with Him. They were the first handful of ripened grain or firstfruit of the harvest. The next firstfruit offering is the first two loaves of bread from that harvest and this will be the rapture that we are waiting for. But there is yet one more firstfruit offering that must come at the end and that is the gleanings in the field that were at the corners of the field and that grain which fell back to earth when the reapers were reaping. The reapers were not to harvest the corners at all nor pick up those that fell back down to earth but leave them to the stranger and poor as gleanings. This is what Paul was referring to in saying that we will all be saved but each in his own order or “togma” (rank as in marching in a parade) in the Greek.
1 Corinthians 15:
20.  But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21.  For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22.  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23.  But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.
24.  Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
Here is where it gets confusing because when Paul says “then cometh the end” he is not talking about the end of the age which is what Stearman suggested, (although Paul does mention that parenthetically because the end of the age is when this will occur) but his subject is these firstfruit offerings and the order that they are harvested in. So “then cometh the end” is the end or last firstfruit offering in a series of firstfruit offerings. The picture Paul is using is that of a military style parade in which each rank “togma” is strictly asigned. The first rank was Jesus but included that handful of believers whom He raised to ascend with Him when He ascended and gave gifts unto men. The second tagma or rank in the parade is the two loaves firstfruit which will be our rapture when it happens but there is still one rank left, so “then cometh the end” refers to the end of the parade or the last rank in the parade, not the end of the age, that is not his subject. The gleanings in the field which are the tribulation saints who will come out of the tribulation are saved also, but in their order just as the other two firstfruit ranks were in theirs.
The reason this is so important now is because anyone who is reading this right now (assuming the rapture has not yet occurred when you are reading this) if you currently are in the rank of “gleaning” you may still upgrade to that of “loaf of bread” status which is “they that are Christ’s at His coming”. If you are not Christ’s at His coming but have remained at the corners of the field or have fallen back to the earth when the reapers were reaping (I didn’t write the example or use it to describe these events so don’t get mad at me for pointing out that this is simply what Paul is referring to here) then you can still become one of Christ’s but do it right now. It is so much better to be one of Christ’s at His coming than to wait and be a gleaning that must go into the tribulation. Gleanings are numbered to the strangers and poor as in Laodicean – I never knew you types. He didn’t say I never met you but I never knew you because you didn’t spend any of your time getting to know me. These types may even be in the ministry because Jesus said that they will immediately begin to appeal to Him by listing all the good works they have performed and so they thought they would be raptured but He answers back that He doesn’t know them. It’s not what you do it’s does He know you because you have made Him top priority in you getting to know Him whom to know is life eternal not whom to have met. Lot’s of people met Jesus when He was on earth but they did not follow Him or make Him priority. He is a person not a historical figure but is here now wanting to spend time with you. Will you let Him? Do I let Him in my life every day? Will you submit to His will for your life or do you want to deny that any such is even necessary? You said the sinner’s prayer, that is enough? Obviously for the thief on the cross it was enough. I believe the thief on the cross was most likely in that first togma group that Jesus raised with Him and took to heaven. Paul is teaching that the resurrection/rapture will happen just as outlined in the Old Testament example of how a field was to be harvested using the firstfruit pattern because that is how we will be harvested into heaven.
Gary Stearman does accurately point out that once the church is removed then God goes back to dealing with Israel. But anyone who was not fully in the two loaves rapture will lose their status of being in the church and then God will deal with everyone as He did before the church was here which Jesus refers to as removing your candlestick out of his place:
Revelation 2:
 5.  Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
Many have argued that the church cannot be divided. That one part cannot be raptured without another part. That whatever happens to one part happens to all the parts. Can you then explain why Jesus would divide the whole church up into 7 parts and speak to them as different groups with different issues and different rewards for overcoming those issues and different consequences for not overcoming different challenges? There is the church history thing, I know but even in our day these differences are still here. I can tell you that someone who grew up in a Catholic upbringing will have a different arena of approach to Jesus than someone like me who grew up Protestant. Someone living in a country where persecution is a reality such as in a Muslim country will have a different life and way of getting to Jesus than we who grow up in the US.
As the letter said that Mr. Stearman read, I to wish it were true that everyone who has ever said the sinner’s prayer would be for sure raptured but I do not see this in scripture but a stern warning to us to make our calling (nomination) and election sure for many are called (nominated, or enter the race) but few are chosen (win the prize).
If this view is wrong and we all get raptured at once you can tweak my halo when we get there and snap it against my head if you want to and I’ll admit I was wrong but if this view is correct and you have not made yourself one of Christ’s at His coming, at least you should know what went wrong.

Nando

Written by twelvebooks

February 4, 2012 at 12:14 pm

K.S. Rajan (3 Feb 2012) “PROVOKING OF GOD TO JUDGEMENT-MUST READ”

The article explains the truth of what is happening in America and the rest of the world from a political and spiritual point of view. It is well written and to the point.

Nando

http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/feb2012/ksrajan23-4.htm

K.S. Rajan (3 Feb 2012)
PROVOKING OF GOD TO JUDGEMENT-MUST READ 



Provoking God’s Judgement
By William Koenig
For all the sins of Baasha, and the sins of Elah his son, by which they sinned, and by which they made Israel to sin, in provoking the LORD God of Israel to anger with their vanities. – 1 Kings 16:13, KJV
The world is continuing its rapid acceleration toward the Apocalypse due to lawlessness and debauchery and what is taking place in Israel and the Middle East.
In the United States, we have a political party responsible for putting people in homes that they couldn’t afford for votes, which collapsed the U.S. housing market and wiped out $7 trillion in home equity and sent shock waves through the economy.
The same political party approved abortion — which led to the slaughter of 55 million children in their mothers’ wombs.
President Barack Obama, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton and their political party fully endorsed and implemented the “lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender” LGBT agenda. (Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! – Isaiah 5:20)
Furthermore, instead of approving domestic energy production, pipeline and refinery construction and tapping America’s vast energy resources, they have made the country more reliant on foreign sources of oil while taking hundreds of billions of dollars out of Americans’ pockets and sending the money to rogue nations.
Assisting their political party is a liberal church focused on social justice — which is a treatment of the symptoms rather than the root cause, which is sin.
Unrepentant sinners from these liberal congregations serve openly — even in the pastorate. (Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind. – 1 Corinthians 6:9)
Yale professor H. Richard Niebuhr, in his book The Kingdom of God in America (1937), wrote that Protestant liberalism’s message and social gospel has led to a “God without wrath [who] brought men without sin, into a world without judgment, through the ministrations of a Christ without a cross.”
Their leaders — through the World Council of Churches, the National Council of Churches and the Vatican — have joined the world community to call on Israel to give up the West Bank (Judea and Samaria) and East Jerusalem to Arabs who are committed to the destruction of the land of Israel. (I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land. – Joel 3:2)
Interfaith meetings between Catholic and Protestant leaders, with Jews and Muslims who call for world peace, at the expense of the Gospel, and act as if there are many paths to God, and state publicly that Allah is the same God of the Jews and Christians. (But every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world. – 1 John 4:3)
Major U.S. banks funded the corporate takeover boom that few people profited from while driving jobs overseas, raising significantly the costs of product on the shelves, driving down wages (which did not keep up with inflation), took a $770 billion American Taxpayer bailout, which was followed by exorbitant interest rates on their customers while their cost of funds were at record lows and then paid billions of dollar in bonuses to their employees the following years. (Yea, they are greedy dogs, which can never have enough, and they are shepherds that cannot understand: they all look to their own way, every one for his gain, from his quarter. – Isaiah 56:11)
Family photo ops for the Obamas and photos of the first family’s occasional trips to church (usually right after the President’s faith is questioned) are designed to win the public’s heart and support, but behind the scenes they are doing their scheming and planning.
The secular press from four of the five major U.S. TV networks and most major U.S. newspapers participates in the deception and refuses to hold the President accountable. (For His eyes are upon the ways of man, and he sees all his steps. – Job 34:21)
Half-truths mixed with lies have become a political art form in Washington and many other statehouses nationwide. (He that worketh deceit shall not dwell within my house: he that telleth lies shall not tarry in my sight. – Psalm 101:7)
Lawlessness and debauchery are running rampant in our streets, while Obama honors the sexually immoral at the White House every June at LGBT events and uses the Occupy Wall Street protests so he can further his socialist agenda, while spreading class division in the country. (A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren. – Proverbs 6:19)
America’s brightest and most talented people from Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Columbia and other Ivy League universities who run Washington think tanks and influence policy at the White House, the State Department and on Capitol Hill have helped produce to the Arab Spring, which is an Islamists takeover of the Middle East, and spirally the region towards the Apocalypse.
After 50 years of involvement in the region, most of them still don’t understand Muslims and the Koran’s enormous influence. They speak as though they are just like any other people if given the right economic opportunities. (For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness. – 1 Corinthians 3:19)
Islam’s apologist in chief, Barack Obama, said this in his “New Beginning speech from Cairo, Egypt, on June 4, 2009:
“But I am convinced that in order to move forward, we must say openly to each other the things we hold in our hearts and that too often are said only behind closed doors. There must be a sustained effort to listen to each other; to learn from each other; to respect one another; and to seek common ground. As the Holy Koran tells us, ‘Be conscious of God and speak always the truth.’
“As a student of history, I also know civilization’s debt to Islam. It was Islam — at places like Al-Azhar — that carried the light of learning through so many centuries, paving the way for Europe’s Renaissance and Enlightenment.
“I also know that Islam has always been a part of America’s story. The first nation to recognize my country was Morocco. In signing the Treaty of Tripoli in 1796, our second President, John Adams, wrote, ‘The United States has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Muslims.’
“And since our founding, American Muslims have enriched the United States. They have fought in our wars, they have served in our government, they have stood for civil rights, they have started businesses, they have taught at our universities, they’ve excelled in our sports arenas, they’ve won Nobel Prizes, built our tallest building, and lit the Olympic Torch.

“And when the first Muslim American was recently elected to Congress, he took the oath to defend our Constitution using the same Holy Koran that one of our Founding Fathers — Thomas Jefferson — kept in his personal library.”

However, the truth that hundreds of millions of Muslims didn’t hear is that Thomas Jefferson fought wars with Muslim pirates who lived by the Koran. That is why he kept a copy of it — it was a war trophy. The wars he fought were called the Barbary Wars (1801-1805). Obama neglected to explain this in his speech.
No other world figures have had more to do with the rapid acceleration of apocalyptic events than American President Barack Obama and Secretary of State Hillary Clinton. Our nation and world may never recover from their time in office.

The provoking of God to judgment continues!

Nando

 

Written by twelvebooks

February 4, 2012 at 11:25 am